Posts by Anders Andersen

8

Being taught to explain rape when a kid

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

does anyone else recall in the 80s/90s that when the minor/child blood issue was discussed the jw children were taught to say that being forced to have blood would be like rape?

and then had to be able to explain what rape is?

apparently there was a court case were the drs were trying to get a court order to force a blood transfusion on a jw child, and the child said it would be like rape to her and the judge asked her to explain what rape is to see if she understood what she was saying.. that went round my cong at least as a "fine witness " and all the parents were encouraged to have their kids practice the whole "explain rape" thing.. anyone else remember this?.

Anders Andersen

"Rape is subjecting a person to sexual acts they don't consent to, such as the Jehovah commanded the Israelites to do when they were told to forcibly marry young female prisoners of war."

16

Dutch Branch office response to the motion accepted by Parliament: "an investigation is shooting with a cannon on a mosquito"

by jochie in

today a large article was published in a dutch newspaper 'dagblad van het noorden'.

it is about frank huiting, the reclaimed voices foundation and the adopted motion in parliament.

the branch office has given a reaction:.

Anders Andersen

Please any Dutch writers here please contact the relevant people in the Dutch Parliament and ask them to scan every thing the wt says and to never assume the standard norms of conversation, are being honored.

That has been taken care of. Reclaimed Voices is keeping in close contact with the members of parliament that initiated this. Every time I"m pleasantly surprised by the knowledge of the MPs and the timing of next steps. They (RV) are doing a very good job!

16

Dutch Branch office response to the motion accepted by Parliament: "an investigation is shooting with a cannon on a mosquito"

by jochie in

today a large article was published in a dutch newspaper 'dagblad van het noorden'.

it is about frank huiting, the reclaimed voices foundation and the adopted motion in parliament.

the branch office has given a reaction:.

Anders Andersen

Watchtower hardly ever responds when asked for commentary by media, and now that they did they're effectively saying Reclaimed Voices and the victims make stuff up. Classy.

They should have said: we're very shocked to hear all this, and although before we never thought we had an issue with child abuse we sure want to get to the bottom of this! Therefore we invite RV to collaborate with us in an attempt to find the extent of the issue.

It's also very telling that Watchtower is basically throwing a red herring. The main issue the victims and RV and the government have with JW is not that JW has a much higher rate of child abuse than the rest of society.

The main problem is that JW offer no proper support to abuse victims and their policies and culture make that child abuse is kept secret without anyone reporting to the police.

By focussing on the numbers and not the culture of secrecy and blind loyalty Watchtowr are deliberately throwing the discussion of course.

As for their child abuse manual (that now they finally have it is being heralded as the best thing ever): al they do is tell everyone they on their own when it comes to abuse, because it's not Watchtower's responsibility.

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

Dear Doubter,

I'll try to explain again...

The investigation that the government urged the JW to conduct is not a criminal court case.
It's an attempt to see if current JW policies and practices are any good in preventing child abuse, and supporting victims once abuse happened.
If during the investigation it is found that policies and practices could be improved, recommendations for improvements will be given.
That's it.

Starting an inquiry is not the same as having already convicted one in court.

The latter requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt, the first yields evidence instead of requiring it.

To request an organization to start such an investigation there is no need for evidence in the same way as there is in a criminal case where the police must have evidence before they make an arrest, and the DA's office must have evidence before bringing someone before a judge.
Why not? Because this is not a criminal court case. It's simply a polite (but urgent) request from the government to a private party. The government cannot and will not make JW NL cooperate with their inquiry.

So far there are a couple hundred complaints and some claims that JW practices and policies re. child abuse are fatally flawed.
The JW claim they are actually quite good.
What could be done to find out who's right?
Run an independent investigation perhaps?

Now since JW refuse, the government might have to take it upon themselves to run such an investigation.

I did not say the govt asked for no reason, I said the reason was basically illegitimate.
[...]
I think when I’m saying is, that when a government wants to investigate you, the expectation is that there is some evidence that facilitates it. There HAS to be, or the investigation is by default illegal.
So what I am hearing is that they don’t have any evidence, but they want investigate anyway.
that makes no sense, unless, they merely believe what they are being told yet can’t validate independently.
[...]
So the investigation is really based on nothing but the opinions of the govt.
[...]
A government can absolutely investigate an organization, if it has a legit basis for it.
Answer this question: what irrefutable independent evidence do you have that jws turned a blind eye to child abuse?
If what you say is true, then outside of an admission, we’d see courts ruling as such.
What court has ruled that way against jw child abuse policies?
[...]
im fine with government inquires, I only care about the basis, or premises, because fairness matters most.

Are you familiar with the Dutch legal system?
It appears not.

The Dutch government can decide to start an inquiry or do research into any issue (relevant to the public) they are concerned about.

Do Dutch dog breeders treat their dogs well?
Does artificial grass on soccer fields harm the environment?
Do pension funds invest their money properly?
Does religion X do enough to prevent child abuse and do they handle abuse cases adequately?

Surely the government doesn't want to waste time and money starting inquiries on unimportant issues, or for which absolutely zero basis exists.
But if there are signals (not necessarily 'irrefutable evidence') that there may be an issue that is relevant to the Dutch public, the government may choose to inquire into that topic.
Once they have done so, the might uncover illegal acts, which are then referred to the DA.
Or they find some law should be changed because what happens is perfectly legal, but undesirable nonetheless. Or maybe some private party might be recommended to change their policies.
Or they find there is no issue at all.

But since such a government inquiry is not an indictment in a criminal court case, they don't need irrefutable evidence to start an investigation.

The fairness in the process is that nobody is judged or condemned before the results of the inquiry are in.
And even then, the inquiry can only result in a moral condemnation. Any legal judgements are reserved for the judicial system, that's why a government inquiry can't and won't take any actions that are reserved for the DA's office.

In the case of the JW, there are strong signals that there may be an issue: almost 300 reports of abuse, including reports of the JW policies leading to people not reporting abuse to the police.
This is enough for the government to be concerned, as Dutch JW are also Dutch citizens, and the government has a duty to try to protect Dutch citizens and their children from abuse.
So the government can legally decide to research the issue and establish whether there actually is an issue or not, and if so, what can be done to resolve it.

The government wanted JW to run this investigation themselves, as that would be much easier (they have access to more documents, victims who are still JW might be more willing to talk to researchers of a JW approved inquiry) and much more useful (as the JW leaders would be more likely to accept the recommendations from their own inquiry)
Unfortunately the Dutch JW leaders see no need to re-evaluate their child abuse policies, and now the government might start the inquiry themselves.

if they “know this”, then why did Dekker make such a ridiculous statement?

Who do you thinks knows Dutch law better: you, or a Dutch minister and the people in his department?

Are you proposing that the minister and the House of Representatives are advocating an illegal inquiry because they dislike JW? Or are you simply wishing too hard this inquiry is illegal?

Remember, The Netherlands is not Russia or China. The government quite likes to adhere to the law around here.

Anders, you say the jws refuse to acknowledge the have a problem with child abuse in the Netherlands.
[...]
but you admit there is no clear evidence of illegal activity (coverups, which are illegal).

This statement shows a lack of understanding of (1) abuse in general, (2) the issue with JW child abuse specifically, and (3) the nature of the investigation proposed by the government.

1) Abuse victims, especially children, are generally quite reluctant to report abuse to the police as doing so would possibly prolong their trauma of have them relive it. It is estimated that around 13% of child abuse cases are also reported to the police (see for example http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/disclosure-statistics). And even when abuse is reported to the police, a conviction doesn't always follow.

2) The JW (are alleged to) have a culture that foster distrust and fear for 'worldly' authorities, a strong reluctance to ever talk negatively about "God's pure people" and thereby "bring reproach on Jehovah's name", reluctance to drag a brother to court. In addition JW policies do nothing to support abuse victims to report to the police, and according to some victims they were even actively discouraged to report the abuse to the police.

Take 1 and 2 together, and it becomes clear why we should be concerned that the number of abuse victims is much, much higher than the number of JW abusers convicted in court cases.

Yet the JW leaders refuse to even consider the possibility that there may be an issue. The flat out say there is no issue.

As for (3): again, the aim of the investigation is not convict JW NL of coverups or other illegal activities based on known evidence.

It is an inquiry with the aim to make sure JW policies and culture are any good when it comes to preventing child abuse and supporting victims, and improve the policies and culture where needed.

Ok, show me the cases, court rulings, etc. ill happily accept it.

You have been shown the cases and the conclusions of the ARC, several court cases in the USA and the UK Charity Commission investigations.

All of those point to a systemic issues with the way JW handle child abuse.Yet you seem to fail to acknowledge this.

And your questions are horribly flawed, because you were suggesting that any imperfect organization needs to be investigated by the government. are you serious? Don’t we all have rights?

My questions were not the standard by which the government should think about whether they should initiate an inquiry or not.
My questions were intended to make you reflect on whether an inquiry into JW would be a bad thing or not.

If the inquiry is run, either JW get to improve their child abuse policies, or the rest of the world can learn from JW policies.
It's a win-win situation. Why oppose it so much?

Who cares about the RCC right now? They admitted to hiding abuse, and so has the Pope. Their guilt is beyond doubt.
The jws have no such established guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
Apples to oranges

In the Netherlands, the RCC cooperated with the government and conducted an independent inquiry into their child abuse issues.
At the time the inquiry started, the RCC could rightfully have claimed "there are almost no criminal cases known, nor is their evidence apart from stories of some alleged victims".
Their guilt was not established at all. Just like you are claiming now about JW.
Regardless, the RCC did the right thing: they chose to look inward, provide transparency, and found out that they had a problem that needed solving.

The RCC in the Netherlands acknowledged the problem they had, actively improved their policies, and set up a complaint and redress procedure for victims....exactly because of that independent inquiry that the government initiated.
JW choose to bury their heads in the sand...it appears they don't even want to know whether they have an issue or not.

I strongly urge you to think about whether the only way to judge practices and policies is in criminal court.
Imagine everyone would argue only based on "established guilt beyond reasonable doubt".

Employee: Sir, multiple customers have complained that out coffee is so hot they burn their mouths on it.
Manager: I don't care. As long as our guilt hasn't be established beyond reasonable doubt we're not looking into this issue.
Employee: But....but....we could easily put a questionnaire to our customers about coffee temp. And it's easy to change the coffee temp too. Why not listen to our customers?
Manager: I still don't care. There's no evidence we do anything wrong, so we won't put a questionnaire to our customers.
Employee: Yeah.....but wouldn't the questionnaire be needed to get the evidence in the first place?
Manager: Shut up and go to work.

I understand that in the USA a lot of things are determined in court (including whether coffee was served too hot or not), but it's not like that in the whole world.

Isn't it perfectly reasonable to look to your own policies to see if they need to be improved, without having been convicted of a crime?
Do you think JW policies around child abuse and support of victims could be improved?
Do you think religions have an effect on and a moral duty to their members and to the public?
Do you think governments should keep an eye on the effect religions have on their members and the public?
Do you think a government should try to find out if any harmful issues exist with a religion if there are signals that there may be harmful issues?

Anyway, the main points for you to take away from this comment are

the Dutch government is well within their legal boundaries when inquiring into possible JW child abuse issues,

and this inquiry is not a conviction in a criminal court case that requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt. This is an inquiry by the government to see if a certain social issue needs intervention. It can be started simply due to the fact that the government is concerned about the issue.

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

@Doubter,

You keep looking at this investigation as if it is a criminal case in court. It is not.

The government has seen ample evidence that makes them concerned enough to ask JW to investigate.

If their were clear evidence of illegal activities JW NL would be dragged to court indeed.

This investigation not about criminal activities.

It is about trying to make sure that JW policies are adequate in supporting victims and preventing child abuse in the first place.

The criminal part is for the DA's office.

You eagerness to defend JW and I guess the "everyone is out to get JW" mind set stops you fro looking at this as a process in which JW NL can improve themselves.

Do you think JW policies re. child abuse are somewhat flawed? Do you think JW can improve their policies and practices with help from non-JW experts?

Or do you think JW abuse policies are perfect? Do you think other organizations can learn from how JW supports victims and protects children?

If the answer to any of the above questions is yes, an independent investigation would help improve either JW or 'the world'.

I don't know why anyone would be against that.

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it was Dekker who said that if WT has nothing to hide, they’d open their doors and do an independent investigation.
He of all people knows that’s nonsense, and standards of evidence and burden of proof doesn’t work that way. He KNOWS this.

Again, this whole case isn't a trial. It's an effort to make sure the JW organization has the proper knowledge, policies and practices to handle abuse cases in a way that's best for he victims.

The investigation isn't meant to judge Watchower, but to help them improve where needed.

And of course the minister of justice and his civil servants know this. They're quite prudent when it comes to not suggesting unlawful investigations.

Therefore the fact that they did insist on JW starting an investigation should tell you that such an investigation would be lawful (just as it was with the Catholic Church, the sports community, etc.)

If 300 people accused me of dealing illegal drugs because I am a doctor who
writes prescriptions to sick people, that doesn’t mean I’m dealing illegal drugs.
Therefore, I am under no legal or moral obligation to offer my patient files to a government.
Nor do I have to submit to the requests of a government.

Do you think Watchtower has a moral obligation to their members?

Do you think Watchtower has a moral obligation to victims of child abuse whose case was handled by JW elders?

Would you trust a day care facility that had multiple complaints from customers about how they treat children, but simply dismiss those complaints and refuse to provide any transparency?

How would you view any other church that appears to have systemic child abuse issues in multiple countries, lost or settled dozens of court cases, has thousands of complaints re. abuse, but refuses to acknowledge even the possibility they may have a problem, and refuses to cooperate with the government on clearing up that issue?

By the way the government wasn't simply requesting files: they wanted Watchtower to review their own policies and procedures and past abuse cases, in an independent and transparent fashion.

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

@Doubter,

Surely the Dutch government didn't insist JW start an investigation for no reason.

The Dutch government isn't known for simply believing the first tabloid that writes a sensational story, and then base the government's official business on that.

The government spoke with victims and reps. of victims. They looked at JW policies and manuals. The saw the ARC report. They concluded that all that information warranted a thorough investigation into JW abuse issues.

Instead of coming up against JW, the government urged JW to do their own independent and transparent investigation.

Not as a matter of criminal trial, but in an effort to help existing victims cope with their trauma, to improve internal policies, and to prevent further victims.

JW simply refused.

They refuse to acknowledge they may have a problem, and they refuse to transparantly investigate whether they have a problem or not.

JW refuse to speak to victims collectively. They only want to speak to individual victims, making the victims powerless again (as it is always a single victims talking to 2 or 3 JW elders).

JW dont want to cooperate with the government in insuring their child abuse policies and practices are up to current standards.

Anyway, if the JW really don't have a problem with child abuse, the best way for them to show that was to cooperate with the government and start an independent investigation.

If there is no issue, that investigation would have shown as much. JW would be in the clear, and the opposers could only shut up.

But for some reason JW don't like transparency. I wonder why that is?

The Catholic Church in The Netherlands handled their abuse issues a lot more gracefully.

As for bad publicity: yes, I think Reclaimed Voices is maximizing publicity around this issue. But not simply to bash the JW. The goal is to create awareness and move the JW leadership to improve their handling on child abuse cases.

Time will tell how Watchtower NL fares. So far they're losing the PR battle.

Unfortunately they also haven't improved their policies around abuse issues much so far, and that is the main goal: making JW a bit safer for children, and the rest of the Netherlands a bit safer from known abusers.

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

@LTPF,

The formal request put before the government explicitly mentions that the investigation should include an analysis of the results of investigations into JW abuse issues that were conducted in other countries.

They already know about the ARC and the UK Charity commission.

But of course the Dutch government only has jurisdiction in The Netherlands...

34

Dutch House of Representatives formally requests the government to start an investigation re. JW child abuse

by Anders Andersen in

today the dutch house of representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into jw child abuse issues.. the request from the house of reps. came after jw nl refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.. now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the house of reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the house why.

it appears the minister of justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though.... collection of dutch news items here.

Anders Andersen

Today the Dutch House of Representatives unanimously voted to petition the government to start an investigation into JW child abuse issues.

The request from the House of Reps. came after JW NL refused to listen to repeated and serious requests from the government to start an independent investigation themselves.

Now it's up to the government to either accept the request by the House of Reps. and start an investigation, or refuse to do so and explain to the House why. It appears the Minister of Justice is not unwilling to start an investigation though...

Collection of Dutch news items here

18

News spot for JW convention - keep barf bags ready

by days of future passed in

i could barely stand listening to it.

watching the jw pushers at the same time was too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgix-5pfwf4.

Anders Andersen

Obesity kills more people than tobacco.

So why is Bro. Whalebelly on TV instead of in the gym lest he be DFed?